War and The Fragility of Civilization
This conversation is between Jerry Baker and Victor Davis Hanson, discussing Hanson's new book "The End of Everything: How Wars Descend Into Annihilation". The discussion covers the history of wars that led to the annihilation of entire civilizations, such as Alexander the Great's conquest of Thebes, Rome's destruction of Carthage, the Ottoman capture of Constantinople, and Cortes' defeat of the Aztecs. They also analyze the current state of affairs in the United States, the polarization and cultural conflicts, and the potential threat posed by rising powers like China to the existing world order.
Some wars in history have resulted in the complete annihilation of civilizations, not just military defeat.
These conflicts often involved iconic cities or civilizations that represented a distinct culture or identity.
The conquered civilizations were often naive and failed to recognize the existential threat they faced from their adversaries.
The conquerors were visionaries who saw the opportunity to build a new civilization on the ruins of the old.
There are worrying signs of internal conflict and decay within American society and institutions.
The rise of identity politics, open borders, and lack of civic education are undermining American unity and values.
There are parallels between past civilizational clashes and the current rivalry between the U.S. and rising powers like China.
Nuclear weapons and advanced technologies increase the potential for rapid annihilation, making vigilance and deterrence crucial.
Excerpts
On wars that led to the annihilation of civilizations:
These were all iconic cities, 7 Gate at Thebes, the city of Oedipus or Antigone, and in the non Greek mind they were representative of the city state. Thebes was more preeminent in the 4th century than Athens and Sparta was. The same thing with Carthage. It had been this dominant power in the Mediterranean. It represented an antithesis to Rome, Punic culture rather than Western culture, different language, religion. The same thing with Constantinople. It was 1100 years of Hellenism, Greek language, Christendom in Asia. And the same thing with the Aztecs. They represented a completely different paradigm to the Spanish.
On the naivety of the conquered civilizations:
They didn't realize that that meant that they were gonna be targeted. And if they were to be destroyed, there would be nothing in the way of a complete takeover or change of government culture civilization. They were also very naive. They didn't really assess to what degree they were the Thebes or the Carthage of all.
On the conquerors' vision of building a new civilization:
So they were visionaries, and when they looked at these cities, they didn't think of just rape and pillage. They thought, you know, if we were to destroy these, then we could bring in a new type of civilization right on top of them. Sometimes they thought, you know, the choice of location was determined because it was conducive to civilization. So we'll build a new Carthage. Only it'll be Roman or we'll rebuild Constantinople, or what will become Istanbul, or we'll build Mexico City, or we'll build a Macedonian theme.
On the internal conflicts and decay within American society:
We used to have a porous border, but we never had a situation where there was no border or ten million people perhaps have crossed with impunity. We looked at these campuses and we understand that the students, in addition to their protest and demonstrations, there's something bad about it. There's something that bothers us. They tend to be entitled, pampered. They don't treat middle class police or middle class maintenance people who clean up after them well. They're not very bright in the sense or maybe informed when they yell these slogans, go back to Poland, they don't know what that means.
On the parallels between past civilizational clashes and the U.S.-China rivalry:
I don't think it's a stretch at all, especially this very rarely remarked on, but we in the west or maybe in particular in the United States have this confidence that familiarity with our culture creates peace and harmony with the antithetical power. The more Chinese students we have here, the more that we try to be easy on China and not blame them for maybe the Wuhan lab, the more have nice commercial ties, the more they will see us and like us. The Greek city states thought that about the Macedonians with the more they have Euripides in plays at the court in Pella, the more they will be impressed with us.
On the threat of advanced technologies like nuclear weapons:
And so in the epilogue, I mentioned all of the nuclear weapons that Russia has issued to Ukraine and Iran has issued to Israel and that Erdogan has talked about very strange things. I don't think people appreciated that we have 50 nuclear bombs at Air Force Base. He said repeatedly that he has proprietary rights to them and are not to be removed. And during the coup, remember, 6 years ago, he cut off power to the base. So I take these people very seriously.