Konstantin Kisin Debates Pro-Palestine YouTuber on Israel-Gaza Conflict
Overview
This episode features a debate between Konstantin Kisin, a podcaster and commentator, and Saifedean Ammous, a pro-Palestinian YouTuber, on the Israel-Gaza conflict. The conversation covers various aspects of the conflict, including the events of October 7th, allegations of genocide, and the role of identity politics in shaping perspectives on the issue. The debate becomes increasingly heated as both participants accuse each other of bias and misrepresentation.
Key Points
Disagreement on the nature and justification of the October 7th attack
Debate over the definition and occurrence of genocide in Gaza
Discussion on the role of identity politics in shaping views on the conflict
Accusations of bias and misrepresentation from both participants
Disagreement on the proportionality of Israel's response to Hamas
Debate over the targeting of civilians by both sides
Discussion of historical context and its relevance to the current conflict
Detailed Discussion
1. Disagreement on the nature and justification of the October 7th attack
The participants strongly disagree on the nature and justification of the October 7th attack by Hamas. Kisin views it as a terrorist attack targeting civilians, while Ammous argues it was primarily aimed at freeing Palestinian prisoners and suggests that many civilian casualties were caused by Israeli friendly fire.
Notable Quotes:
"I actually have said repeatedly that I thought that if October 7th was a Hamas attack on Israeli military installations and border patrols and an attempt to, attack the IDF, for example, I don't think the world would have responded the way that the world has, and I don't think the Israelis would have responded the way they have. And I certainly wouldn't see what happened on October 7th, as what it was, which is a horrific terrorist attack."
— Konstantin Kisin
"Releasing Palestinian prisoners. And in fact, one of their, one of their meditator squadrons had actually attempted to get into Ashkelon to free prisoners from a prison, but they couldn't get there. So this was exactly about freeing, prisoners."
— Saifedean Ammous
2. Debate over the definition and occurrence of genocide in Gaza
The participants disagree on whether Israel's actions in Gaza constitute genocide. Ammous argues that Israeli officials' statements and actions indicate a genocidal intent, while Kisin contends that the situation does not meet the definition of genocide.
Notable Quotes:
"The extermination of a people or a group of it and or their elimination from a piece of land. This is exactly what is really important."
— Saifedean Ammous
"The definition of genocide is the deliberate targeting of an ethnic group on its ethnic basis and murdering them in order to destroy that ethnic group and nationhood. I don't believe that's what's happening in Gaza. That's my opinion. If that was what's happening in Gaza, in my opinion, I wouldn't defend it, and I wouldn't support it."
— Konstantin Kisin
3. Discussion on the role of identity politics in shaping views on the conflict
Ammous accuses Kisin of being influenced by identity politics in his views on the conflict, while Kisin strongly denies this and argues that he approaches the issue based on first principles and available information.
Notable Quotes:
"Yeah, your identity gives you a bias towards this conflict, and that makes you..."
— Saifedean Ammous
"From my perspective, I'm someone who's against identity politics. I try to judge all the issues on the merits as much as I can. Now I'm, of course, not perfect, and I sometimes, am not able to see things objectively. None of us are. But I really do my very best not to allow my identity, to influence things."
— Konstantin Kisin
4. Accusations of bias and misrepresentation from both participants
Throughout the debate, both participants accuse each other of bias and misrepresenting their positions. Kisin repeatedly states that Ammous is arguing against points he hasn't made, while Ammous accuses Kisin of ignoring Israeli atrocities and justifying their actions.
Notable Quotes:
"Why don't you actually ask me my opinions about things instead of putting words in my mouth or arguing with people you imagine in your head?"
— Konstantin Kisin
"No. I'm talking to you. I know who I'm talking to. I've been... In your own mind, there's nothing that Israel does that is unjustified as many conservatives as they kill, as many terrorists..."
— Saifedean Ammous
5. Disagreement on the proportionality of Israel's response to Hamas
The participants disagree on whether Israel's response to Hamas is proportionate. Kisin argues that any country would respond similarly to a terrorist attack, while Ammous contends that Israel's actions are excessive and amount to genocide.
Notable Quotes:
"So if you are asking me about that, you have to start by acknowledging that that is a terrorist attack. Now how would any country, this is what I'm asking you, respond to a terrorist attack in exactly the way that Israel has done?"
— Konstantin Kisin
"Yeah. So the point is you're out there... In your mind, there's nothing that Israel does that is unjustified as many conservatives as they kill, as many terrorists..."
— Saifedean Ammous
6. Debate over the targeting of civilians by both sides
Both participants condemn the targeting of civilians but disagree on the extent to which each side is responsible for civilian deaths. Ammous argues that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, while Kisin contends that Hamas uses human shields and that Israel attempts to minimize civilian casualties.
Notable Quotes:
"The reason so many people are dying in Gaza is that it benefits Hamas to see them be killed, and that's why they're putting them in harm's way deliberately. And that is something perhaps we should add to this conversation."
— Konstantin Kisin
"Think about the fact that Israel's destroyed every single piece of critical infrastructure in Gaza, every single water pump, every single electricity plant, every single university, every school, every hospital. And most of these buildings, they didn't destroy them. Well, not most, but a lot of these buildings, they didn't destroy them with aerial bombardment. They had already occupied the territory. They'd go in, they'd put in bombs, and they'd destroy them because of the..."
— Saifedean Ammous
7. Discussion of historical context and its relevance to the current conflict
The participants disagree on the relevance of historical context to the current conflict. Ammous emphasizes the long-term Israeli occupation and displacement of Palestinians, while Kisin focuses more on recent events and the immediate context of the conflict.
Notable Quotes:
"This is something that Israelis have been doing since the 1940s, and they've done it in the 60s, and they've done it recently. And this is something that has become mainstream."
— Saifedean Ammous
"I actually don't know that that is my position. This gets me into hot water with a lot of people. I don't know that I believe there should be a Jewish state in Palestine. Should is an interesting word. I mean, I think that even people I've yet to hear an argument about the creation of the state of Israel that makes me a 100% convinced that it was all clean and white and pure in every way, and there was no there's nothing wrong there."
— Konstantin Kisin